| the ending actually killed it for me, from a flawless masterpiece to a incomplete dumpster fire, seeing a black screen type out some bullshit from 1468 to 1491 is so stupid. Seeing rafal again and be explained nothing about his supposed death is stupid. Not seeing the aftermath of his capture is stupid. It just couldve been so much better. Probably still deserves an 8/10 but the potential loss is so massive that i cant give it any higher then a 6/10 Just heartbreaking, it couldve been the anime of the year if it had 3-10 more episodes instead of a evangelion esque stupid ending.  |
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| *From a 9 to a 10 in the span of 2 episodes |
| It was obvious that the series was going to reach Nicolaus Copernicus's life, and it did. Like, idk what else you would wanna add to the series - the story of Copernicus' works is the story of Europe accepting heliocentrism, and the series is focused on a society that does not accept it, so the anime was a good built-up to this point. |
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| It's not my favorite ending but 10 to a 6 is an insane spread for like one or two meh episodes |
| Training to become a real magical girl |
| Real, I ended up giving it a 7 but I'm still considering a 6. Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time. |
Reply to CaptainScareCrow
I feel the same way, from what I have read online they say that episodes 1 to 23 are a literary creation of Albert and this, for me, takes away importance from the story I followed for 23 episodes making all of it meaningless
| @CaptainScareCrow Its pretty funny to say a story loses importance cause its also a story in universe of something else, its still just a story it was never real. Its like getting mad that digimon series will show the original series as just a TV show in some of the other entries set in different universes, it doesnt invalidate the original its a TV show. |
JizzyHitlerMar 21, 3:52 PM
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
Reply to Kiniaczu
Real, I ended up giving it a 7 but I'm still considering a 6.
Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time.
Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time.
Kiniaczu said: Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time. this exactly, anybody saying the last episodes made it better are pretentious little shits @Zarutaku @The_Spectre_01 |
|
Reply to Kiniaczu
Real, I ended up giving it a 7 but I'm still considering a 6.
Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time.
Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time.
| @Kiniaczu I can absolutly promise you this, that take on something needing to be analyze to make sense is gonna be something you will deeply disagree with eventually. Its pretty much a point most people think at a time until they start watching more and abstraction starts to become more appealing especially once you start to feel burnt out on certain trends and tropes. I think I recall making similar arguments when I was a teenager and thought he ending of inception was pretentious and ascribed that to most things like it, 15 years later I love shit like killer 7, twin peaks, Lain, etc that are exponentially more confusing and less coherent than these last 2 episodes of orb. Its not pretention, there's so many stories that stick with you because theres so much to delve into and thing about and become more satisfying once you figure them out like a puzzle. |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
Kitsune_089 said: the ending actually killed it for me, from a flawless masterpiece to a incomplete dumpster fire, seeing a black screen type out some bullshit from 1468 to 1491 is so stupid. Seeing rafal again and be explained nothing about his supposed death is stupid. Not seeing the aftermath of his capture is stupid. It just couldve been so much better. Probably still deserves an 8/10 but the potential loss is so massive that i cant give it any higher then a 6/10 Just heartbreaking, it couldve been the anime of the year if it had 3-10 more episodes instead of a evangelion esque stupid ending. so you didn’t even realize that rafal was actually dead and that was a flashback before he was captured..? yeah i see what level of IQ you have.. |
Gavinmercer said: It's called meta fiction, stories that draw attention to their own fictionality, and it's been used in literature for centuries, by Chaucer, Cervantes, Stern, Thackery and countless other writers. It's purpose is to make you think more objectively about the nature of fiction. There is nothing new or pretentious about it, im not calling it new im calling bad and unsatisfactory, also its still not confirmed what we watched was "real" or "fiction" i dont see fan theories as canon when the actual media has no proof related to their claims. thats why i call it pretentious, its exactly the same with what eva fans do, searching some hidden meaning or talking about lore that was never in the show |
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| 7 to 7 in the span of 2 episodes, yeah i was not losing my mind over this. |
 |
Paharo05 said: Kitsune_089 said: im not calling it new im calling bad and unsatisfactory, also its still not confirmed what we watched was "real" or "fiction" i dont see fan theories as canon when the actual media has no proof related to their claims. thats why i call it pretentious, its exactly the same with what eva fans do, searching some hidden meaning or talking about lore that was never in the show Not being able to enjoy metafiction is quite posibly the worst take I can think of. Is something bad if it is fiction inside fiction (and this time it isn't even like that)? Does something being fiction in its own world make it lose value? Why if it was just a story in our reality would it have more value than if it was a fictional world inside a fictional story in our reality? It'd be all made up, no matter how many layers of stories there were. Also, adult Rafal was just a symbolism of him embodying the same concept as kid Rafal: someone willing to die/kill for the truth. He wasn't revived, he wasn't a clone, an alternate reality version of him. It was just a very cheap excuse from the author to reuse a character design as it had thematical reasons to be that way. Also, NGE ep 25 and 26 hate 30 years after they released is quite an uncommon hill to die on. But you do you, I suppose Its not bad because its "meta". Its just a bad ending regardless of what kind of fiction it is It being "meta fiction" is completely irrelevant, and your rafal rant is a complete fan theory. and im saying the nge ending is the just similar to orb, not whatever the duck you are making in your little mind Its just an unsatisfactory ending that leaves a sour taste in your mouth |
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ryzxgum said: 7 to 7 in the span of 2 episodes, yeah i was not losing my mind over this. This was my experience as well (first answer I see mirroring it after reading through the topic thread). Personally, I would have preferred a slightly more grounded and straightforward ending in a historical drama series like this, in line with what came before it, but I never from the outset or at any point ever expected the ending to be so radically either phenomenal or horrendous that it would alter my rating much in either direction. The highest I could have seen this series going up or down were an 8 and a 6, respectively. As it turns out it remained a 7/10 and that's fine. |
Reply to CaptainScareCrow
JizzyHitler said:
@CaptainScareCrow Its pretty funny to say a story loses importance cause its also a story in universe of something else, its still just a story it was never real. Its like getting mad that digimon series will show the original series as just a TV show in some of the other entries set in different universes, it doesnt invalidate the original its a TV show.
@CaptainScareCrow Its pretty funny to say a story loses importance cause its also a story in universe of something else, its still just a story it was never real. Its like getting mad that digimon series will show the original series as just a TV show in some of the other entries set in different universes, it doesnt invalidate the original its a TV show.
I am not so sure that the two things can be place on the same level, the original Digimon series being shown on the TV during other series of the franchise could be seen just as an easter egg. If they told you in the last episode of the Digimon series that what you just saw was actually a movie they were making, with the characters being actors, the locations from the series made with greenscreen and the Digimon themselves made with CGI then that would be a comparison on the same level as Orb because it would nullify all the previous episodes. Or at least that's how i feel about it, everyone has the right to think what they want about the finale.
@CaptainScareCrow But even in the book interpretation of the finale orb's isnt like that cause it never says everything you saw was just actors on a stage, episode 1-23 are a complete definitive story and its up to the viewer to connect how the last 2 episodes and it kind of seems like you are singling in on the book interpretation you like the least rather than the lost history one that is equally as strong a case that does tie everything together as a real event in the same timeline |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
JizzyHitler said: @CaptainScareCrow But even in the book interpretation of the finale orb's isnt like that cause it never says everything you saw was just actors on a stage, episode 1-23 are a complete definitive story and its up to the viewer to connect how the last 2 episodes and it kind of seems like you are singling in on the book interpretation you like the least rather than the lost history one that is equally as strong a case that does tie everything together as a real event in the same timeline This is actually a very good theory that connects the story developed in the previous 23 episodes and that manages to give a satisfying ending to the series, thanks for sharing it, I had missed this vision of the ending. The use of the character of Rafal in the ending still doesn't fully convince me but I think it's a matter of personal preference. Thanks again for sharing an interesting theory about the ending. |
| idk why so many ppl were gassing the last 2 eps tbh the ending was weird ash but it didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the show. still amazing |
 |
Reply to Gippy
Very interesting discussion.
I dropped it from a 10 to an 8. Explained it all in my wrap-up post because I easily came up with what the show should have done. Read that and hopefully it takes some sting out of the ending for you.
The ending episodes are arguably the most important episodes of the show. People drop shows after 1-3 opening episodes, but sometimes they miss out on an epic show that turns itself around. A poor ending doesn't allow for that sort of redemption. I dropped Great Pretender from a 10 to a 4 because I felt its ending was a huge middle finger to the viewer. I've dropped the score of multiple romances because the guy ended up picking the wrong girl, like True Tears. Or the infamous one, Re:Zero with "I love Emilia." I've dropped the scores of many shows which copped out with a read-the-manga/LN ending. It's completely justifiable to score a show lower due to a poor or nonexistent ending.
Episodes are timeless, and these episodes still suck. End of Evangelion wouldn't exist if these episodes didn't suck.
THIS. 100% agree. This is the post of the thread. Anime reviewers are full of two extremes: those who watch less than 10 anime/year and only stick to mainstream stuff where you turn off your brain, and elitists who think most anime suck because they don't warrant further theorycrafting and deep philosophical analysis. The Crunchyroll anime awards are the former, while the r/anime awards are the latter. I can't find too many reviewers who just love anime, watch a lot of it, and don't care about finding deeper meanings.
It is absolutely possible to write a good story without going through pretentious philosophical monologuing or showing avant-garde/abstract concepts which don't make sense to most viewers. I slammed Revue Starlight in my review, giving it 2/10. It blew my mind that some people made remarks like "I didn't know what the hell went on, but 10/10 because it's so pretty." I also gave Sonny Boy a 1/10, which r/anime thought was anime of the year. I thought it was worse than Ex-Arm. Finally, I don't rate Kunihiko Ikuhara works very highly. (Utena 4/10, Penguindrum 5/10, Yuri Kuma Arashi 6/10, Sarazanmai 7/10). On the flip side, my favorite anime of all-time is ef - a tale of memories, which told 2 simple stories but used unconventional abstract cinematography to enhance everything and make the show a standout.
Going back to Orb, the author knew that the story was about to wrap up, and he made the mistake of using the final chapters as a philosophical soapbox rather than ending the story cleanly. This also happened in Babylon (3/10) which was turning out to be an all-time great until the second half happened. Babylon was similar to Orb in many ways, except half of the show is like episodes 24-25, which completely ruined it. And of course, people reacted to Attack on Titan the same way, though I believe that its philosophical hammering at the end wasn't as bad as other shows that selfdestructed.
the ending actually killed it for me, from a flawless masterpiece to a incomplete dumpster fire, ... seeing a black screen type out some bullshit from 1468 to 1491 is so stupid.It just couldve been so much better. Probably still deserves an 8/10 but the potential loss is so massive that i cant give it any higher then a 6/10
I dropped it from a 10 to an 8. Explained it all in my wrap-up post because I easily came up with what the show should have done. Read that and hopefully it takes some sting out of the ending for you.
It's not my favorite ending but 10 to a 6 is an insane spread for like one or two meh episodes
The ending episodes are arguably the most important episodes of the show. People drop shows after 1-3 opening episodes, but sometimes they miss out on an epic show that turns itself around. A poor ending doesn't allow for that sort of redemption. I dropped Great Pretender from a 10 to a 4 because I felt its ending was a huge middle finger to the viewer. I've dropped the score of multiple romances because the guy ended up picking the wrong girl, like True Tears. Or the infamous one, Re:Zero with "I love Emilia." I've dropped the scores of many shows which copped out with a read-the-manga/LN ending. It's completely justifiable to score a show lower due to a poor or nonexistent ending.
NGE ep 25 and 26 hate 30 years after they released is quite an uncommon hill to die on.
Episodes are timeless, and these episodes still suck. End of Evangelion wouldn't exist if these episodes didn't suck.
Apparently this is a hot take: stories that need to be deeply analyzed to make any sense inherently suck. A good story needs to have an understandable meaning that will make the audience WANT to learn more. It makes no sense to assume that people will rewatch your work in hopes it maybe becomes good somehow when there are many other stories that are good the first time.
THIS. 100% agree. This is the post of the thread. Anime reviewers are full of two extremes: those who watch less than 10 anime/year and only stick to mainstream stuff where you turn off your brain, and elitists who think most anime suck because they don't warrant further theorycrafting and deep philosophical analysis. The Crunchyroll anime awards are the former, while the r/anime awards are the latter. I can't find too many reviewers who just love anime, watch a lot of it, and don't care about finding deeper meanings.
It is absolutely possible to write a good story without going through pretentious philosophical monologuing or showing avant-garde/abstract concepts which don't make sense to most viewers. I slammed Revue Starlight in my review, giving it 2/10. It blew my mind that some people made remarks like "I didn't know what the hell went on, but 10/10 because it's so pretty." I also gave Sonny Boy a 1/10, which r/anime thought was anime of the year. I thought it was worse than Ex-Arm. Finally, I don't rate Kunihiko Ikuhara works very highly. (Utena 4/10, Penguindrum 5/10, Yuri Kuma Arashi 6/10, Sarazanmai 7/10). On the flip side, my favorite anime of all-time is ef - a tale of memories, which told 2 simple stories but used unconventional abstract cinematography to enhance everything and make the show a standout.
Going back to Orb, the author knew that the story was about to wrap up, and he made the mistake of using the final chapters as a philosophical soapbox rather than ending the story cleanly. This also happened in Babylon (3/10) which was turning out to be an all-time great until the second half happened. Babylon was similar to Orb in many ways, except half of the show is like episodes 24-25, which completely ruined it. And of course, people reacted to Attack on Titan the same way, though I believe that its philosophical hammering at the end wasn't as bad as other shows that selfdestructed.
Gippy said: The ending episodes are arguably the most important episodes of the show. People drop shows after 1-3 opening episodes, but sometimes they miss out on an epic show that turns itself around. A poor ending doesn't allow for that sort of redemption. I dropped Great Pretender from a 10 to a 4 because I felt its ending was a huge middle finger to the viewer. I've dropped the score of multiple romances because the guy ended up picking the wrong girl, like True Tears. Or the infamous one, Re:Zero with "I love Emilia." I've dropped the scores of many shows which copped out with a read-the-manga/LN ending. It's completely justifiable to score a show lower due to a poor or nonexistent ending. Agree that endings/twists are important and can make or break an anime, but the point is that they very rarely come out of nowhere, that's generally the exception to the rule when they do. The issue with the 10-6 spread or other large score spreads is that it's usually just people misjudging the anime from the beginning so they are surprised for no reason when it suddenly "gets bad." Great Pretender ending was disappointing you are right, but it was clearly never a 10/10 show in the first place, if you expected some amazing ending from that show I think you are a little off. Great anime if you don't take it seriously but I think your expectations were too high Rezero "i love emilia" is also bad to me I completely agree, but that was clearly the type of anime it was from the beginning, it really doesn't do anything crazy enough to warrant a huge change in score. If this anime was truly great subaru would have just picked assassin girl at the beginning because she is way more appealing than both It's always justifiable to lower a score of course, people can score things whatever they want, and that's fine. But it is purely a skill issue when people have such drastic swings in scores because they think an anime is something that it's not. When I say it's an insane spread it mostly just means, "wow your assessment of that one really missed the mark" |
| Training to become a real magical girl |
JizzyHitler said: @Kiniaczu I can absolutly promise you this, that take on something needing to be analyze to make sense is gonna be something you will deeply disagree with eventually. Its pretty much a point most people think at a time until they start watching more and abstraction starts to become more appealing especially once you start to feel burnt out on certain trends and tropes. I think I recall making similar arguments when I was a teenager and thought he ending of inception was pretentious and ascribed that to most things like it, 15 years later I love shit like killer 7, twin peaks, Lain, etc that are exponentially more confusing and less coherent than these last 2 episodes of orb. Its not pretention, there's so many stories that stick with you because theres so much to delve into and thing about and become more satisfying once you figure them out like a puzzle. I don't know where you got the idea that I don't like any stories with mysteries, theorizing potential or meta themes. It's a genre I really like actually. Undertale is my favorite media of all time, my profile pic is Kris from Deltarune, I like Omori, Gnosia (will get an anime this year btw I heavily recommend). Out of anime, I love Madoka Magica and Good Night World. What I was saying is that if you want your audience to care enough to analyze your story and find the clues you put in, you need to give them something they can love that they'll want to learn about. Let me give some examples: 1. Undertale: The culmination of the meta themes is in the genocide route, in which you treat the game like a normal RPG via grinding XP and killing everything in you path. If it was the only route, it would just end up being edgy. The reason it works is that the True Pacifist route (and a LOT of neutral ending variants) exists, so you can get attached to the characters and feel unnerved by the drastic differences between genocide and any other playthrough. 2. Gnosia: there are some meta, we-know-this-is-a-game themes and time travel. While the "simpler" part of the plot isn't as specifically intertwined as Undertale's routes, it would still suffer a lot without the simple side/the connection between you and your partner - it would just be an "oh cool" instead of an emotional ending. Orb, on the other hand, lacks any reason for us to care about Albert, so the last two episodes are that "oh cool" at best - meaning the watcher doesn't have any issues with it, and there are a whole bunch of possible ones. For example, the fact that the 23 episode fight for heliocentrism gets solved by some random guy who has nothing to do with the characters we actually care about. Also it happens OFFSCREEN in a documentary-like white text on a black background. Second thing is them reusing Rafał, who seems to be the favorite protagonist, as part of another's backstory with no explanation other than possibly "the main story Rafał was inspired by Albert's teacher" (even though real-Rafał seems to have been split into story-Rafał and Jolanta's dad) |
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