Help talk:IPA/English

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2024 — Article: Help:IPA/English

In the vowel table, switch iː and ɪ back. NoShldJ (talk) 05:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Nardog (talk) 06:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

COMMA example?

I'm a little confused. In my ear, and I'm pretty sure in British English in most (all?) accents, also Australian and New Zealand, maybe US but I'm not sure, the A in comma is Open-mid back unrounded vowel ʌ, not schwa ə. Like the second a panda? Or koala? 125.168.22.109 (talk) 08:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

In my several-decades-old British English accent, comma, panda and koala all end in /ə/. A /ʌ/ would be "too long and open", if you know what I mean. Bazza 7 (talk) 09:49, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That's what a phoneme is: an abstract category of sounds that are not in contrastive distribution with one another. Colour in isolation may be pronounced with vowels of similar qualities, but not coloured, colourful, etc., which are still obviously colour + suffix. Nardog (talk) 14:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

/r/-less NEAR and CURE in South African English (and RP?)

By analogy with //ɜː//, we should probably add r-less //ɪə// and //ʊə// (note that it doesn't normally vary with /ɔː/ or /ɜː/ - another reason to make it separate from //ʊər//) for Afrikaans loanwords in South African English (see South African English phonology#Vowels). I can't imagine an American calling Reeva Steenkamp /ˈstɪrnkʌmp/, or Marie Koopmans-de Wet /ˈkʊrpmʌnz də ˈvɛt/. They'd go for /i, u/ or maybe /eɪ, oʊ/ (or, unlikely, /i.ə, u.ə/, which is the best they could do to approximate the Afrikaans pronunciation). We could also think about adding /a/ and /ɔ/ to the guide (the latter is written with ⟨o⟩ in South African English phonology, but the point is that it's a shortened THOUGHT vowel, so ⟨ɔ⟩ would be perfectly fine for this guide. Also, this is how this vowel is transcribed in Afrikaans, and invariably so, to the best of my knowledge).

Articles that would (as of now) be affected by this change:

• Botha
• Chenin blanc
• Diepsloot
• Koopmans-de Wet House
• Louis Botha
• Marie Koopmans-de Wet
• P. W. Botha
• Potchefstroom
• Reeva Steenkamp
• Roodepoort
• Vereeniging
• Vredefort
• Vredenburg
• Vredendal

And probably a few more that I'm not aware of. I'm planning on adding more SAE transcriptions in the future. I think Botha is traditionally /ˈbʊətə/ also in RP.

//ɔ// could be used in Hendrik Potgieter /pɔtˈxiːtər/ (see [1]), whereas //a// could be used in the aforementioned Steenkamp /ˈstɪənkamp/ and Koopmans-de Wet /ˈkʊəpmanz də ˈvɛt/ - and also in Vredendal /ˈfrɪədəndal/ (I think Nietgedacht also has this vowel and so does Bloubosrand). Olifantsfontein has both: /ˈɔlifantsfɒnteɪn/ (see [2]). I see no reason not to add at least the first two, as SAE is spoken by about 30 million people (give or take, I don't know the exact figure). This guide transcribes phonemic distinctions that the majority of speakers of English do not have in their vowel system, like the STRUT-COMMA distinction (see [3]), or a phonemic /x/ which, as of 2024, is probably the most South African feature of this guide, as it's disappearing from Scottish English and doesn't really make a regular appearance in other dialects.

This is how I'd add them to the table.

Also, do we have the SAE labels in the IPAc-en template? Sol505000 (talk) 12:32, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how it could be justified to add those when we no longer have a distinct FORCE. Like varieties that maintain NORTH–FORCE, SAE is not a variety large lexicographical works are available for. Whenever transcribing a word with a phonemic distinction the diaphonemic system doesn't account for, one should just not link to this key. In that vein, I'd find creating a phonetic key for SAE more sensible than adding marginal segments to this key. Nardog (talk) 04:58, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, what does SAE have in idea, theatre, cruel, etc.? Nardog (talk) 05:03, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

LPD transcribes a distinct FORCE vowel as a possibility in GenAm (as /oʊr/), but I'm not sure it'd be a good idea to reintroduce it to this guide.

Yes, you mostly have to transcribe by ear, which is not a problem at least with /ɪə ʊə/. With /a/, you can go by orthography (/ʌ/ is also fine, IMO. They're close enough. Lass didn't really convince me they're not the same phoneme, but that's off-topic). For the former two, the rule is that in loanwords from Afrikaans, ⟨ee⟩ and ⟨oo⟩ (sometimes just a single ⟨e⟩ and ⟨o⟩) stand for /ɪə ʊə/. The glide is easily detectable by ear. /ɔ/ is probably the most tricky of all to transcribe. ⟨ɔː⟩ would be completely inappropriate - it makes Potgieter into Port Gieter, with wrong length. ⟨ɒ⟩ is not terribly wrong, it has the correct length, but wrong height and too little rounding. It's sometimes used instead of /ɔ/. /ʊ/ is usually too central and not rounded enough in SAE, so ⟨ʊ⟩ is as wrong as ⟨ɔː⟩. I guess that SAE /ɔ/ truly cannot be transcribed using IPAc-en.

A guide specific for SAE is doable. One for Scottish English could be created as well. If we create a guide for SAE, should that system be always used, so also in e.g. Johannesburg [dʒœʊˈhænɨsbøːɡ]?

I'm not sure. They could be smoothed in Cultivated SAE, which is basically SAE-flavored RP with little difference between the two. But I think even (some?) Cultivated speakers have at least a distinct /ɔ/, due to bilingualism. If their /ʌ/ is consistently back (and it's not in General SAE), then /a/ must also be distinct, if it's not replaced with /æ/ instead. Sol505000 (talk) 10:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Starting 'a...'

I can't find the IPA for 'a' as in 'as', or 'accent', or 'advent' in the list; neither "ɑː" (cited: palm, bra, father - all longer vowel sounds), nor "ə" (cited: comma, abbot, bazaar - all more schwa sounds), fit well. What should be used, please? - MPF (talk) 00:38, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Use /æ/. /ˈæz ˈæksɛnt ˈædvɛnt/. It's in the chart with sample words "TRAP, bag, sang, tattoo". Indefatigable (talk) 01:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Indefatigable: Really? I read that as da:æ, same as de:ä, like a short -ae-, which is a very different sound. I also see /æ/ has a note "Some British sources, such as the Oxford English Dictionary, use ⟨a⟩ instead of /æ/ to transcribe this vowel. This more closely reflects the actual vowel quality in contemporary Received Pronunciation", so should it not be ⟨a⟩, which sounds far more realistic? Nobody æctuælly says an 'æ' sound when they mean æn 'a' sound? - MPF (talk) 09:43, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't have formal training in linguistics, but it is my understanding that /æ/ has been the de facto standard notation for this English phoneme for over a hundred years, and it has been in use for this purpose on Wikipedia since its inception. Indefatigable (talk) 00:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Indefatigable: Thanks! I'll not fight it then, even if it does look strange. - MPF (talk) 15:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Indefatigable or anyone else - I've been looking (and listening to the recordings) further, and it's definitely IPA 304 Open front unrounded vowel [a] that I need, and not IPA 325 Near-open front unrounded vowel [æ], which is definitely the wrong sound. But when I put in [a], it gives me an error message? How can that be sorted so it doesn't give the error message? Thanks! - MPF (talk) 14:48, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Have you read the prose parts of the help page? We don't represent specific sounds in transcriptions linking to this key, just abstract categories (diaphonemes). Nardog (talk) 14:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Nardog - I've taken a look, and don't see anything particularly relevant there! But it is rather out of my depth, unfortunately - MPF (talk) 15:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)